I appreciate you writing this. I am a Catholic who has never quite grasped how people hold on to
Anglicanism. But as others have said, I don't recognize your picture of Catholicism at all; your description of Anglicanism sounded like just about every Catholic parish I've been to. It sounds like you are describing the online Catholic Apologetics Catholicism more so than the real stuff. If anything one of the challenges that a Catholic who takes their faith seriously must overcome is to simultaneously not take themselves too seriously and not fall into the unseriousness of the average Catholic.
Finally, maybe I am missing something, but perhaps I have an overly simplistic, maybe "prideful" take on this paragraph:
"Yet perhaps this agony of indecision - the gnawing sense of belonging to the wrong Church by accident of birth - is the surest path to Heaven. Catholics, secure in their Nicene legitimacy, risk pride in the certainty that their Church is obviously the most serious. The Anglican must grapple with the constant awareness that he was raised a heretic. And what does this breed but humility?"
-- Is remaining in heresy really humility? Or may I suggest there is a bit of stubborn pride in that as well? Humility is simply having an opinion of oneself that corresponds to the Truth. Perhaps the Truth is calling you to fix this accident of your birth. God Bless.
It seems to me that the image of Catholicism in your post is entirely based on movies.
Very few Catholic masses are set to Gregorian chant, most have regular hymns or even modern charismatic-style songs. In fact I’d say Anglicans are far more attentive to their musical patrimony than Catholics.
Members of the flock wander off all the time, the average person only shows up on Easter and Christmas, and the guy using the church as free addiction therapy is an ever present archetype. Most people are poorly catechised and refer to the Eucharist as a ‘wafer’, and the average Catholic’s faith consists more of folk practices related to Mary and the saints that anything to do with the Gospel.
I only recently converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism. There is certainly a latent superiority subtext woven into many conversations. That’s a longer conversation.
It would appear that Catholicism has a superiority complex; Anglicanism e Protestantism, an inferiority complex. In Orthodoxy, however, it seems like many folks are upset not at their sinfulness, or lesser-than-ness, but simply that they aren’t like Jesus as much as they should be. It has always seemed to me that a Orthodoxy strikes the perfect balance between stringency and laxity — which is not to say that it has *as qualities* either of those traits, but rather that it perfectly embodies what each of those traits were gunning fir but failed to approach.
I didn’t see any reasons in your post for not becoming Catholic.
Sure, there can be a sense of superiority about our Church: It is the one founded by Our Lord, and that is excellent. But as we don’t believe in “salvation by faith alone,” most of us also know that simply being Catholic doesn’t cut it. We need to be transformed by grace.
It might be worth talking to a priest about confession too. It’s not quite the “loophole” you described, though certainly a source of consolation and strength.
Being catholic is dificult, as a E. Waugh’s character said. You are not sure of salvation if you are a true believer. You have the fear of pride, the worst sin, for example. Becoming catholic is not the end of a way, just the contrary.
I’m a convert to Catholicism from Oneness Pentecostalism and a variety of low church Anglicanism that was hardly flirting with “popish” ways. I don’t really see Catholicism as being a bunch of snobs; if anything, mainstream cradle Catholics tend to be ignorant of their heritage. There are difficult people anywhere you go, but I would say that humble Protestants who do become Catholic are a gift that can help enrich the life of the Church with their zeal for the Faith. Benedict XVI also created the Ordinariates so Anglicans could retain elements of their patrimony but be in full communion with the Holy See. The Mass as expressed in The Divine Worship Missal in use for the Ordinariates is a lovely thing! If you haven’t been to such a Mass, I highly recommend it.
This seems like a reductive view of the sacrament of reconciliation. Sure, some people may treat it without much gravity, but typically a lax Catholic wouldn’t go to confession at all. One of my motivations to not sin is that if I do I know I have to go tell an old man in a dark room about it
It does, but it was always a minority, even if perhaps more people either took the faith seriously or recognized that despite their own failings, the church was the only game in town, that becoming an apostate did not mean another religion. Schism was off the table. It meant becoming what we now call a none in practice. There is also some truth to how even the most mild form of Catholicism, so long as it’s taken reasonably seriously and without anyone crossing their fingers during the Creed, is foreign to converts, even ones coming from a Protestant background that includes a very structured service. But a lot of it is simply a justification for not converting, and that means that yes, a lot is made up in the head.
Your center is not holding. Catholicism is a journey to the center of living. Early Christianity called itself The Way. It is a journey to the core of being. Your vision perceives only the outside of things. The Way entails re-making yourself by seeing God in Creation, of which you are part. The Way requires - because your life requires - you to listen to Creation; listen to the service required of you both by God and your inner being; and, your sacrifice for the people you meet in your everyday life. The Way demands of you to participate in Creation. Catholicism is Christocentrism. The rites and rituals of Catholicism is like a Great Library. Despite the deficiencies of the men who lead it. And, because of the mentors have led it. And, because of my mentoring and falling. Rise and fall … but stay on The Way. There’s help on the road.
If you ever want to become Catholic it takes a course that lasts about 8 months and a bit, assuming that you are serious about it and are actually called. As you are Christian already, you will then have to vow that you believe what the Church teaches and is, then say the Nicene creed. After that you will be confirmed. As for what to do, there are books and slides these days and as a substacker you can read.
Catholicism is the only place you can receive the True Blood and Body of Christ. Once you understand that, everything else falls into place. John 6:22–71.
I’m not sure entirely how things are in Anglicanism, but in Calvinism I grew up in we believed all our sins were forgiven, including future ones we have yet to commit, due to penal substitutionary atonement theory. That is why I have never understood the criticism that confession is a “loophole” that facilitates sin, especially when it comes from Protestantism where forgiveness is (almost) automatic. Sinning became much harder after converting to Catholicism, as I was forced to seriously contemplate them and confess them, whereas when I was a Protestant a vague general feeling of contrition was enough.
You should get over your fetish for Romish idolatry and embrace Calvinism (the only system of Christianity that is logically self-consistent and scripturally sound). It's a shame Christianity isn't true, because if it were I would be a Calvinist.
You clearly mixed things up and certainly writing from a particular Anglican standpoint. There exists within the Anglican tradition Sacrament of Reconciliation. The Anglican Eucharistic liturgy gave absolution a special place while making private confession a personal choice. I suspect your background is definitely low-church Anglicanism but do well to do more research before writing things like this for public consumption.
In addition to that, there's no pre-eminence in one remaining a schismatic assuming your assertion is anything to go by. While disagree with your comments on the Roman Church in general, the feeling of superiority is true.
Perhaps you should gin up the sinning, write about it here and really dig down deeply into your humility? And after that stop going to church altogether, watch football instead, but tweet about how lapsed you are during the commercials? That would really be humble and Anglican.
I appreciate you writing this. I am a Catholic who has never quite grasped how people hold on to
Anglicanism. But as others have said, I don't recognize your picture of Catholicism at all; your description of Anglicanism sounded like just about every Catholic parish I've been to. It sounds like you are describing the online Catholic Apologetics Catholicism more so than the real stuff. If anything one of the challenges that a Catholic who takes their faith seriously must overcome is to simultaneously not take themselves too seriously and not fall into the unseriousness of the average Catholic.
Finally, maybe I am missing something, but perhaps I have an overly simplistic, maybe "prideful" take on this paragraph:
"Yet perhaps this agony of indecision - the gnawing sense of belonging to the wrong Church by accident of birth - is the surest path to Heaven. Catholics, secure in their Nicene legitimacy, risk pride in the certainty that their Church is obviously the most serious. The Anglican must grapple with the constant awareness that he was raised a heretic. And what does this breed but humility?"
-- Is remaining in heresy really humility? Or may I suggest there is a bit of stubborn pride in that as well? Humility is simply having an opinion of oneself that corresponds to the Truth. Perhaps the Truth is calling you to fix this accident of your birth. God Bless.
It seems to me that the image of Catholicism in your post is entirely based on movies.
Very few Catholic masses are set to Gregorian chant, most have regular hymns or even modern charismatic-style songs. In fact I’d say Anglicans are far more attentive to their musical patrimony than Catholics.
Members of the flock wander off all the time, the average person only shows up on Easter and Christmas, and the guy using the church as free addiction therapy is an ever present archetype. Most people are poorly catechised and refer to the Eucharist as a ‘wafer’, and the average Catholic’s faith consists more of folk practices related to Mary and the saints that anything to do with the Gospel.
I only recently converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism. There is certainly a latent superiority subtext woven into many conversations. That’s a longer conversation.
It would appear that Catholicism has a superiority complex; Anglicanism e Protestantism, an inferiority complex. In Orthodoxy, however, it seems like many folks are upset not at their sinfulness, or lesser-than-ness, but simply that they aren’t like Jesus as much as they should be. It has always seemed to me that a Orthodoxy strikes the perfect balance between stringency and laxity — which is not to say that it has *as qualities* either of those traits, but rather that it perfectly embodies what each of those traits were gunning fir but failed to approach.
The Man is the method, as it were.
Unfortunately, many parishes are how you describe.
I didn’t see any reasons in your post for not becoming Catholic.
Sure, there can be a sense of superiority about our Church: It is the one founded by Our Lord, and that is excellent. But as we don’t believe in “salvation by faith alone,” most of us also know that simply being Catholic doesn’t cut it. We need to be transformed by grace.
It might be worth talking to a priest about confession too. It’s not quite the “loophole” you described, though certainly a source of consolation and strength.
Being catholic is dificult, as a E. Waugh’s character said. You are not sure of salvation if you are a true believer. You have the fear of pride, the worst sin, for example. Becoming catholic is not the end of a way, just the contrary.
I'm sure of my salvation! Glory to Jesus Christ!
As the catholic philoshopher Fabrice Hadjadj said, Satan also believes in God and is a master of Catholic theology.
I don't know if his work, "La foi des dėmons: ou l'athéisme dépassé", has been translated, but it is very clear and disturbing for Catholics.
I’m a convert to Catholicism from Oneness Pentecostalism and a variety of low church Anglicanism that was hardly flirting with “popish” ways. I don’t really see Catholicism as being a bunch of snobs; if anything, mainstream cradle Catholics tend to be ignorant of their heritage. There are difficult people anywhere you go, but I would say that humble Protestants who do become Catholic are a gift that can help enrich the life of the Church with their zeal for the Faith. Benedict XVI also created the Ordinariates so Anglicans could retain elements of their patrimony but be in full communion with the Holy See. The Mass as expressed in The Divine Worship Missal in use for the Ordinariates is a lovely thing! If you haven’t been to such a Mass, I highly recommend it.
It's because we smell funny, isn't it?
This seems like a reductive view of the sacrament of reconciliation. Sure, some people may treat it without much gravity, but typically a lax Catholic wouldn’t go to confession at all. One of my motivations to not sin is that if I do I know I have to go tell an old man in a dark room about it
The idea you have of Catholicism in your head is not even a caricature. I don't think it has any semblance of reality in it.
it's absolute projection and wishful thinking lol
It does, but it was always a minority, even if perhaps more people either took the faith seriously or recognized that despite their own failings, the church was the only game in town, that becoming an apostate did not mean another religion. Schism was off the table. It meant becoming what we now call a none in practice. There is also some truth to how even the most mild form of Catholicism, so long as it’s taken reasonably seriously and without anyone crossing their fingers during the Creed, is foreign to converts, even ones coming from a Protestant background that includes a very structured service. But a lot of it is simply a justification for not converting, and that means that yes, a lot is made up in the head.
Your center is not holding. Catholicism is a journey to the center of living. Early Christianity called itself The Way. It is a journey to the core of being. Your vision perceives only the outside of things. The Way entails re-making yourself by seeing God in Creation, of which you are part. The Way requires - because your life requires - you to listen to Creation; listen to the service required of you both by God and your inner being; and, your sacrifice for the people you meet in your everyday life. The Way demands of you to participate in Creation. Catholicism is Christocentrism. The rites and rituals of Catholicism is like a Great Library. Despite the deficiencies of the men who lead it. And, because of the mentors have led it. And, because of my mentoring and falling. Rise and fall … but stay on The Way. There’s help on the road.
If you ever want to become Catholic it takes a course that lasts about 8 months and a bit, assuming that you are serious about it and are actually called. As you are Christian already, you will then have to vow that you believe what the Church teaches and is, then say the Nicene creed. After that you will be confirmed. As for what to do, there are books and slides these days and as a substacker you can read.
And not a single reference to truth or falsehood was made.
Catholicism is the only place you can receive the True Blood and Body of Christ. Once you understand that, everything else falls into place. John 6:22–71.
I’m not sure entirely how things are in Anglicanism, but in Calvinism I grew up in we believed all our sins were forgiven, including future ones we have yet to commit, due to penal substitutionary atonement theory. That is why I have never understood the criticism that confession is a “loophole” that facilitates sin, especially when it comes from Protestantism where forgiveness is (almost) automatic. Sinning became much harder after converting to Catholicism, as I was forced to seriously contemplate them and confess them, whereas when I was a Protestant a vague general feeling of contrition was enough.
he writes as if going to a priest to confess your darkest shameful actions and thoughts is the easy way out
Lots of tongue in cheek here it seems. And in the comments too?
You should get over your fetish for Romish idolatry and embrace Calvinism (the only system of Christianity that is logically self-consistent and scripturally sound). It's a shame Christianity isn't true, because if it were I would be a Calvinist.
Maybe because you think calvinism is logical that you also think christianity isn’t true
What would convince you Christianity was true?
Probably personally witnessing a miracle.
Personally as in, in person?
You clearly mixed things up and certainly writing from a particular Anglican standpoint. There exists within the Anglican tradition Sacrament of Reconciliation. The Anglican Eucharistic liturgy gave absolution a special place while making private confession a personal choice. I suspect your background is definitely low-church Anglicanism but do well to do more research before writing things like this for public consumption.
In addition to that, there's no pre-eminence in one remaining a schismatic assuming your assertion is anything to go by. While disagree with your comments on the Roman Church in general, the feeling of superiority is true.
Perhaps you should gin up the sinning, write about it here and really dig down deeply into your humility? And after that stop going to church altogether, watch football instead, but tweet about how lapsed you are during the commercials? That would really be humble and Anglican.